Horsepower

[Jacobs Dad]

On the 07 Repsol, what is the exact horsepower and top speed? Everywhere I look, I can't find anything on it.

[diel11]

Kinda hard to answer. Which dyno, what brand dyno, rear tire brand and air pressure, ambient temp, humidity, tie down method, etc. Honda will quote hp like all other manufacturers, crankshaft hp, not rear wheel.

Top speed, indicated 185, actual about 177. And that also depends in all kinds of conditions and factors.

I know, it sure would be cool if there was a standard.

[MeanMachine]

Kinda hard to answer. Which dyno, what brand dyno, rear tire brand and air pressure, ambient temp, humidity, tie down method, etc. Honda will quote hp like all other manufacturers, crankshaft hp, not rear wheel.

Top speed, indicated 185, actual about 177. And that also depends in all kinds of conditions and factors.

Rear tire BRAND? Air pressure? That has no effect on a dyno. If you are thinking that because tire brand, pressure, and wear can change the final drive ratio slightly, it does, but it doesnt matter. Changing the sprockets would have a more drastic effect on that, but even that has no effect because the speed vs. rpm's are measure accurately throughout the test and final drive ratios do not effect the results. Changing the drive ratio can (and does) dramatically change the way power is utilized and ultimately effect acceleration and top speed. But HP does not change by changing the drive ratio.

On a rear wheel dyno, the major factors are Humidity (first and foremost), the higher the humidity, the more oxygen is displaced by water vapor and therefore less oxygen available per cubid foot which burns less fuel and produces less HP. Ambient Air Temp is the next biggest effect. the hotter the incoming air, the less fuel is delivered, less fuel, less HP. Elevation is another major factor. A bike on a dyno in Denver will produce less gross HP than the same bike under the exact same atmospheric conditions at sea level because there is less available oxygen and therefore less fuel is burned again. (Which is why dynos have correction factors).

I know, it sure would be cool if there was a standard.

There is a standard, its called SAE, which is why all manufacturers quote crankshaft HP. The Crankshaft HP is computed in a controlled environment which removes the major factors like humidity, ambient temp, etc. This is the purest form of HP measurement and is the only way to truly compare apples to apples in the automotive industry. And since no two drivetrains are identical, especially in applications where a specific model engine is coupled to different gearboxes/drivetrains (in cars manual vs. auto), drivetrain loss can never be constant. That is why they must use SHAFT hp, and not Rear Wheel hp. Shaft hp can be consistent, rear wheel hp cannot due to too many variables between the shaft and the wheel.

Rear wheel HP is simply a tool that we (the standard consumer) can use. Aside from the highest end machine shop facility, a shaft dyno is virtually impossible to find, and would be incredibly expensive to use as it would require an engine pull to use. Rear Wheel HP is a great guide (especially when making mods), and can get you a close approximation of actual (Shaft) HP when you factor drive train loss. But it is not as accurate, because drivetrain loss is purely an approximation and/or a best "Guess". Gets you in the ball park, but its not an exact science. Thats why you need to get a baseline done BEFORE doing mods, so you can better approximate what your drivetrain losses are.

[diel11]

Rear tire BRAND? Air pressure? That has no effect on a dyno. If you are thinking that because tire brand, pressure, and wear can change the final drive ratio slightly, it does, but it doesnt matter. Changing the sprockets would have a more drastic effect on that, but even that has no effect because the speed vs. rpm's are measure accurately throughout the test and final drive ratios do not effect the results. Changing the drive ratio can (and does) dramatically change the way power is utilized and ultimately effect acceleration and top speed. But HP does not change by changing the drive ratio.

On a rear wheel dyno, the major factors are Humidity (first and foremost), the higher the humidity, the more oxygen is displaced by water vapor and therefore less oxygen available per cubid foot which burns less fuel and produces less HP. Ambient Air Temp is the next biggest effect. the hotter the incoming air, the less fuel is delivered, less fuel, less HP. Elevation is another major factor. A bike on a dyno in Denver will produce less gross HP than the same bike under the exact same atmospheric conditions at sea level because there is less available oxygen and therefore less fuel is burned again. (Which is why dynos have correction factors).



There is a standard, its called SAE, which is why all manufacturers quote crankshaft HP. The Crankshaft HP is computed in a controlled environment which removes the major factors like humidity, ambient temp, etc. This is the purest form of HP measurement and is the only way to truly compare apples to apples in the automotive industry. And since no two drivetrains are identical, especially in applications where a specific model engine is coupled to different gearboxes/drivetrains (in cars manual vs. auto), drivetrain loss can never be constant. That is why they must use SHAFT hp, and not Rear Wheel hp. Shaft hp can be consistent, rear wheel hp cannot due to too many variables between the shaft and the wheel.

From personal experience, Dunlop tires will read 10-12hp less than Michelin or Pirelli. Ask KWS, Lee's Performance, FW Developments, and Race Developments about that if you don't believe me. Tire construction has a lot to do with readings on a Dynojet dyno. So does tire pressure, they teach you that at the Dynojet class. Traction. Wheel hop. Sounds like you're talking about automotive stuff there, I am talking about a dynojet 210i dyno that I use. Even how tight I tie down a bike will show differences on the chart. This is so well known in the motorcycle performance world that cheating tuners will do a run on a specific bike with a Dunlop, then do the work and put a racing slick or a Michelin or Pirelli on to show the "big" gains.

All the shaft hp in the world will not give you a real world idea on what's truly going on. If we lived in a lab, under perfect conditions, it would be ok. In the real world we have to account for frictional losses, in conjunction with ambient and whatever else. I guess if the thread starter wants lab results, he should be able to find those. If he wants closer to what he's going to see everyday, he's going to have to take the bike in and go from there. And even then it might not be accurate enough. I use a dyno as a tool and nothing else. Even the top race teams use rear wheel dynos, nothing else. They need to know what's truly being put down. They can also diagnose simple things like misaligned rear tires and tight spots in chains by looking at the chart.

[diel11]

I go to the extent of having a "dyno wheel and tire". That way I have more control over numbers.

[MeanMachine]

From personal experience, Dunlop tires will read 10-12hp less than Michelin or Pirelli. Ask KWS, Lee's Performance, FW Developments, and Race Developments about that if you don't believe me. Tire construction has a lot to do with readings on a Dynojet dyno. So does tire pressure, they teach you that at the Dynojet class. Traction. Wheel hop. Sounds like you're talking about automotive stuff there, I am talking about a dynojet 210i dyno that I use. Even how tight I tie down a bike will show differences on the chart. This is so well known in the motorcycle performance world that cheating tuners will do a run on a specific bike with a Dunlop, then do the work and put a racing slick or a Michelin or Pirelli on to show the "big" gains.

All the shaft hp in the world will not give you a real world idea on what's truly going on. If we lived in a lab, under perfect conditions, it would be ok. In the real world we have to account for frictional losses, in conjunction with ambient and whatever else. I guess if the thread starter wants lab results, he should be able to find those. If he wants closer to what he's going to see everyday, he's going to have to take the bike in and go from there. And even then it might not be accurate enough. I use a dyno as a tool and nothing else. Even the top race teams use rear wheel dynos, nothing else. They need to know what's truly being put down. They can also diagnose simple things like misaligned rear tires and tight spots in chains by looking at the chart.

Dunlops 10-12 hp less? In a word, "rediculous". I don't need to ask anyone. I know from my own personal experience as well as professional judgement (I'm an engineer).

YOU brought up the desire for a "standard". I simply pointed out that there is in fact a standard. No, we don't live in a lab, but when we read technical specifications regarding HP and TQ, we DO want accurate numbers, especially when we are making comparisons between brands/models. As a starting point for any consumer, you want the purest and most accurate data, and more importantly, something standard that can be used in a comparison. You can dyno 100 brand new identical bikes and never get two curves to plot identical on a graph. As far as a standard goes, exactly what would you consider "STANDARD"? Maybe all the bike manufacturers should roll on down to your shop and YOU can be the new REAL WORLD standard. :rolleyes:

The dyno is a tool... I beleive I already stated that. Specifically a tuning tool, and when used right is invaluable. Top race teams use rear wheel dynos. DUH. Its the easient, fastest, and best way to tune, why wouldnt they? If they could use a shaft dyno, how ungodly long would it take? Thank you for stating the painfully obvious.

How you tie down, etc. is yet one more variable, and another thing that can be done right or wrong. All depends on the tech doesnt it? Which is another reason why you can't use this as a standard, since dyno pulls may be consistent to a particular dyno, and even technician, but not universally.

You say if the thread starter wants to know what he will see every day, as opposed to lab results... Interesting comment. Shaft hp and rear wheel are different due to drivetrain loss, however, neither ceases to exist in "everyday" life. If his bike makes 185 shaft hp, thats NOT what he will see everyday? hmmm... interesting.

In short, shaft hp is the industry standard for data presentation, comparison, and sales. Rear wheel hp is a tuning tool used for a different prupose and cannot be compared to advertised data. They are different. But if someone wants to know the HP rating of a specific MODEL bike in general, then advertised data is the best way to go since it can be easily compared to other models or brands. If he wants to know his own, then he needs to dyno HIS bike, because someone elses dyno numbers will NOT be real world for him, now will they???? How would rear wheel numbers YOU supply for YOUR bike be more real world for the thread starter than Honda's shaft numbers???

Read his question at the beginning. He is looking for the general HP rating for this bike, period. ie: Manufacturers ratings. Not the Real world according to diel11!

MOST people can better understand Standard Shaft HP ratings, because if you tell everyone that has a 1000rr what the rear wheel numbers are without explaining exactly what that is, the majority of them will be asking you later on why in the world an R1 or GSXR1000 has so much more HP (because they would confuse the two not realizing the difference)... Another reason for a "standard", which by the way, we have.

[Jacobs Dad]

Easy guys, I was merely asking for what Honda claims the horsepower is. I realize it will not be at the rear wheels, but just what they claim it is. Asking today, someone told me 173hp, but that seems kinda high.

[MeanMachine]

Easy guys, I was merely asking for what Honda claims the horsepower is. I realize it will not be at the rear wheels, but just what they claim it is. Asking today, someone told me 173hp, but that seems kinda high.

I knew exactly what you were looking for, which is why the whole argument started. 173 sounds about right. For some reason the actual Manufacturers HP ratings for the 07 1000rr are hard to locate.

The 2006 is rated at 172.

[diel11]

Wow, seems like the tone changed there, huh? If you don't want to verify my statements with people that do this everyday, that's not a problem at all. I don't understand why it got all hostile all of a sudden. What the t/s asked was for "exact" hp and top speed. You took that one way, I took it another. I took it as rear wheel, which even though you can run the numbers thru correction factors, still is not completely "standard". All the stuff you said about crankshaft hp and all that, yeah, dead on. Since my perception of the question was different than yours, I posted my experiences on the dyno to support such claim. I understand that in forums it's hard to convey tone, so if my typed words sounded like I was being an ass, I apologize. I also don't understand why you being an engineer you wouldn't accept information from other sources, especially if you don't have all the bikes, tires and equipment to do the comparison. I thought learning from others was equally important to learning from books. We all know that the stuff in the lab doesn't always translate to good results in the real world. And whether you believe it or not, there is a difference in hp results depending on the tire brand and psi.

Some of the other comments, no problem, not going to even waste my time. I deal with "engineers" all the time so I am used to it. You would think that being an engineer you would understand the difference in perception. When I saw the word "exact", that's what I would think he would want. Might be exact crankshaft, might be exact rear wheel, but was not specified. Sounds like he got his answer so that's all that matters.

BTW, there's no "e" in ridiculous. Details, details.

[diel11]

To the t/s, sorry if I contributed to a thread jacking. The 06 and 07 are the same, only colors and graphics changed.

[Thrasher]

Ok guys everyone play the lottery and when someone wins big were going to buy rent a big building take week or two vacation and get together with all the knowledge and skill we have and go hog wild modding our bikes going to superbike school etc. ALL ON ME, If I win the Mega Millions get ready for a trip to Long Beach or better yet I will find a building next to a track we can get our own Dino, Keith Code etc.
Ive been playin for at least 15 years I think Im due for about 360 Million.:eek:

[diel11]

I'm game!!

[MeanMachine]

I think we thoroughly beat the proverbial horse to death, so lets drop it. Besides, the t/s already stated he was looking for Honda's numbers, not RW and he has the answer.

Peace. :)

[Thrasher]

Chill guys I think if we were all in the same room with the equipment and time we could all learn a little something. I have a hard enough time putting stickers on:eek:

[diel11]

Ask Ducati how they do their crankshaft run. Might as well ask Triumph also. Totally different.

The comment about dealing with engineers is simple...been around them for years as I am one also. Talk about ASSume! Automotive engineer at that, is that funny or what? It's not the first thing that comes out of my mouth, as most engineers are looked at under a bad light IMO. It's not about the education with me but I already stated that.

The reason I mentioned different people to ask is because they're not just friends, they are internationally known establishments. Any time you have Mat Mladin bitching that his factory ride is not as fast as a KWS prepped bike, you know you can trust these people. If you want to know anything about drag racing and overall strong motors, Lee's the man. In the UK, if you want to have someone build you one of the strongest cbr1000rr motors, even stronger than tenKate, FW Developments or Race Developments. So they're not just "friends" that will say anything. They have a reputation to maintain.

I am in complete agreement of your last statement, dead horse.

Take care.:)

[diel11]

Chill guys I think if we were all in the same room with the equipment and time we could all learn a little something. I have a hard enough time putting stickers on:eek:

At least they gave out a guide with the 07s. I never saw one for my 05.

[Jacobs Dad]

thanks for all the input, what is a t/s ?

[MeanMachine]

thanks for all the input, what is a t/s ?

You. t/s = Thread Starter.

[silvercbr]

HP at the wheel is anywhere from 145-160 (taking into consideration all variables). Throw your bike on a dyno and you will know. Personally, I split the difference and tell people around 155hp.

[1eyebrother]

my brother will be getting a dyno at his shop within the next 2 weeks and I will throw up my stock 07 and see what we get for fun......:rolleyes:

[6speed]

what does honda say they put out at the engine stock? i know there has to be a rating somewhere. like suzuki for example rates the 1000 at 171hp i think

[Cue]

On the 07 Repsol, what is the exact horsepower and top speed? Everywhere I look, I can't find anything on it.

Ask your Repsol Dealer :) News flash; what we ride are Honda CBR1000rrs, Repsol makes lubricants not bikes :)

[MeanMachine]

Advertised HP = 173
Top Speed = 179

[tribaltim]

Hp and Speed that's easy a lot and more....

[T-6 MECHANIC]

Rear tire BRAND? Air pressure? That has no effect on a dyno. If you are thinking that because tire brand, pressure, and wear can change the final drive ratio slightly, it does, but it doesnt matter. Changing the sprockets would have a more drastic effect on that, but even that has no effect because the speed vs. rpm's are measure accurately throughout the test and final drive ratios do not effect the results. Changing the drive ratio can (and does) dramatically change the way power is utilized and ultimately effect acceleration and top speed. But HP does not change by changing the drive ratio.

On a rear wheel dyno, the major factors are Humidity (first and foremost), the higher the humidity, the more oxygen is displaced by water vapor and therefore less oxygen available per cubid foot which burns less fuel and produces less HP. Ambient Air Temp is the next biggest effect. the hotter the incoming air, the less fuel is delivered, less fuel, less HP. Elevation is another major factor. A bike on a dyno in Denver will produce less gross HP than the same bike under the exact same atmospheric conditions at sea level because there is less available oxygen and therefore less fuel is burned again. (Which is why dynos have correction factors).



There is a standard, its called SAE, which is why all manufacturers quote crankshaft HP. The Crankshaft HP is computed in a controlled environment which removes the major factors like humidity, ambient temp, etc. This is the purest form of HP measurement and is the only way to truly compare apples to apples in the automotive industry. And since no two drivetrains are identical, especially in applications where a specific model engine is coupled to different gearboxes/drivetrains (in cars manual vs. auto), drivetrain loss can never be constant. That is why they must use SHAFT hp, and not Rear Wheel hp. Shaft hp can be consistent, rear wheel hp cannot due to too many variables between the shaft and the wheel.

Rear wheel HP is simply a tool that we (the standard consumer) can use. Aside from the highest end machine shop facility, a shaft dyno is virtually impossible to find, and would be incredibly expensive to use as it would require an engine pull to use. Rear Wheel HP is a great guide (especially when making mods), and can get you a close approximation of actual (Shaft) HP when you factor drive train loss. But it is not as accurate, because drivetrain loss is purely an approximation and/or a best "Guess". Gets you in the ball park, but its not an exact science. Thats why you need to get a baseline done BEFORE doing mods, so you can better approximate what your drivetrain losses are.
THE TIRE DOES MATER BACAUSE ALL TIRES WEIGHT DIFFERENT AND THIS ALL LEADS TO UNSPRUNG WEIGHT WHICH WILL YEILD A HIGHER NUMBER ON THE DYNO ....

[MikeR]

2 many factors that change the outcome. U come to africa I think our horses are donkeys so the power must be down on thorobreds. :evilgrin::evilgrin:

[JohnnyComeLately]

Stock set up, with stock tires (corsa), I pulled a 148 HP peak with ambient air temps around 90 and about 500 ft above sea level.

(in case you're wondering, plate was there just to keep cops off my ass when they pulled me over for no plate. Once I got it in the mail, I fabricated a plate holder that looks much better)

[TX Repsol]

Stock set up, with stock tires (corsa), I pulled a 148 HP peak with ambient air temps around 90 and about 500 ft above sea level.

(in case you're wondering, plate was there just to keep cops off my ass when they pulled me over for no plate. Once I got it in the mail, I fabricated a plate holder that looks much better)

I bet that's loud as hell inside that trailer...

(I'm guessing it's a trailer from the pics).

[Repsol47]

I bet that's loud as hell inside that trailer...

(I'm guessing it's a trailer from the pics).

Is there nothing thats get past ya TX.....LOL. :p

[JohnnyComeLately]

I bet that's loud as hell inside that trailer...

(I'm guessing it's a trailer from the pics).

Rent is so high in SoCal that most mechanics work out of very small office building rooms....




:D Just kidding...


Yes, it was extremely loud anywhere near that trailer. I beat a R1 to take "Dyno King" for the day on liter bikes. There was an 1100 highly modified GSXR but they didn't put me up against him. I used the $50 I won towards $150 goatskin racing gloves. :D

[Felix]

If you say the 05' and 07' are listed basically at 172hp, what is the dry weight or average dry weight of a Honda CBR1000RR Repsol.

[TX Repsol]

If you say the 05' and 07' are listed basically at 172hp, what is the dry weight or average dry weight of a Honda CBR1000RR Repsol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CBR1000RR